Comments on: The False Doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved http://catholicrevelation.com/2009/11/once-saved-always-saved/ Defending the Church: The Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth - 1 Timothy 3:15 Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:41:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Dina McNulty http://catholicrevelation.com/2009/11/once-saved-always-saved/comment-page-1/#comment-445 Dina McNulty Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:41:45 +0000 http://catholicrevelation.com/?p=195#comment-445 Dan, I just now realized that you posted something in February as a reply to my essay on Once Saved, Always Saved. I don't know how I missed your reply, but I read it, and I would like to respond. I think that Catholics and Protestants can agree that a living faith is not possible without works. Please understand that the Catholic Church has never taught that works can merit salvation. It is important, however, to note that James does not say that faith without works is not really faith. It is still faith, but it is a dead faith and therefore, faith can indeed exist without works. This is why the Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works are important, for faith alone does indeed imply faith without works; a dead faith. Let me quote some more from James to show you what I mean. "For as the Body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26 A dead body is still a body, right? James compares the Body to faith and the spirit to works. The Body without a spirit is still a body. The same can be said of faith. Faith without works is still faith. But, the Body without a spirit is dead, just as faith without works is dead. The Body needs the spirit in order to be a living body, but it is still a body. Faith needs works in order to be a living faith, but it is still faith. James seems to imply with this analogy, that you can indeed have faith, but no works, but that is not the kind of faith that will put you on the path toward salvation. So, therefore, salvation by 'faith alone' is a false doctrine, because it implies a 'dead' faith, the kind of faith that James preaches against. It is also important to note that works can never merit our initial justification. That is a free gift. However, show me where Scripture says that once we are saved and receive that initial gift, we are forever bound to a living faith that brings us to Heaven. At any time we can choose to reject our gift of Grace and choose hell. This does not mean that we can kick the Holy Spirit out. God doesn't take the gift away. But, he doesn't force us to cooperate with this gift of Grace either and we can indeed choose hell. This is the point of my essay. Dan,

I just now realized that you posted something in February as a reply to my essay on Once Saved, Always Saved. I don’t know how I missed your reply, but I read it, and I would like to respond.

I think that Catholics and Protestants can agree that a living faith is not possible without works. Please understand that the Catholic Church has never taught that works can merit salvation. It is important, however, to note that James does not say that faith without works is not really faith. It is still faith, but it is a dead faith and therefore, faith can indeed exist without works. This is why the Catholic Church teaches that both faith and works are important, for faith alone does indeed imply faith without works; a dead faith. Let me quote some more from James to show you what I mean.

“For as the Body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:26

A dead body is still a body, right? James compares the Body to faith and the spirit to works. The Body without a spirit is still a body. The same can be said of faith. Faith without works is still faith. But, the Body without a spirit is dead, just as faith without works is dead. The Body needs the spirit in order to be a living body, but it is still a body. Faith needs works in order to be a living faith, but it is still faith. James seems to imply with this analogy, that you can indeed have faith, but no works, but that is not the kind of faith that will put you on the path toward salvation. So, therefore, salvation by ‘faith alone’ is a false doctrine, because it implies a ‘dead’ faith, the kind of faith that James preaches against.

It is also important to note that works can never merit our initial justification. That is a free gift. However, show me where Scripture says that once we are saved and receive that initial gift, we are forever bound to a living faith that brings us to Heaven. At any time we can choose to reject our gift of Grace and choose hell. This does not mean that we can kick the Holy Spirit out. God doesn’t take the gift away. But, he doesn’t force us to cooperate with this gift of Grace either and we can indeed choose hell. This is the point of my essay.

]]> By: Dan http://catholicrevelation.com/2009/11/once-saved-always-saved/comment-page-1/#comment-112 Dan Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:46:40 +0000 http://catholicrevelation.com/?p=195#comment-112 Without God's grace, there would be no sacrifice in the first place. Without the sacrifice of Christ, there would be no object to place our faith in. Without faith, there is no justification in grace (Romans 3:24), faith (Romans 5:1) or the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9). We are justified by His grace and His blood (Christ's part) through faith (our part). It is by grace that we are saved through faith (Eph. 2:8). We have access by faith into this grace (Rom. 5:2). A living faith produces good works BECAUSE it's a living faith, not to become a living faith. The source of the life in the faith is not the works; rather, the life in the faith is the source of the works. In James 2:14, we read of one who "says he has faith" but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a "bare profession of faith." So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an "empty profession of faith." James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it results in works. The faith that James is condemning is not the faith that Paul is commending. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith, not the means of our salvation. James DOES NOT teach that we are saved BY works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith CLAIMED (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Show me your (alledged) faith without your works and I will SHOW you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). SHOW, not establish. We are saved by that kind of faith accompanied (confirmed, authenticated) by works. We are justified by faith but only by a true faith, a faith proved to be true if it is followed by good works. We are not doing good works to become saved, we are doing good works because we were already saved by an authentic faith in Jesus Christ which "trusts in Him alone for salvation." Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:1-3; Ephesians 2:8-9); yet faith, if it is genuine, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-26). Having faith in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation means that you are believing (trusting) only in Jesus to save you. It means you are not placing your faith in anyone or anything else, not even in your own works, for your salvation. This does not mean that saving faith does not result in good works. Salvation through faith "apart from works" means "apart from the merit of works" and not "apart from the presence of works." Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of our salvation. Without God’s grace, there would be no sacrifice in the first place. Without the sacrifice of Christ, there would be no object to place our faith in. Without faith, there is no justification in grace (Romans 3:24), faith (Romans 5:1) or the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9). We are justified by His grace and His blood (Christ’s part) through faith (our part). It is by grace that we are saved through faith (Eph. 2:8). We have access by faith into this grace (Rom. 5:2). A living faith produces good works BECAUSE it’s a living faith, not to become a living faith. The source of the life in the faith is not the works; rather, the life in the faith is the source of the works. In James 2:14, we read of one who “says he has faith” but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a “bare profession of faith.” So when James asks, “Can that faith save him?” he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an “empty profession of faith.” James gives us the test for genuine faith: like the faith of Abraham, it results in works. The faith that James is condemning is not the faith that Paul is commending. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine saving faith, not the means of our salvation. James DOES NOT teach that we are saved BY works. His concern is to SHOW the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith CLAIMED (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Show me your (alledged) faith without your works and
I will SHOW you my (genuine) faith by my works (James 2:18). SHOW, not establish. We are saved by that kind of faith accompanied (confirmed, authenticated) by works. We are justified by faith but only by a true faith, a faith proved to be true if it is followed by good works. We are not doing good works to become saved, we are doing good works because we were already saved by an authentic faith in Jesus Christ which “trusts in Him alone for salvation.” Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:1-3; Ephesians 2:8-9); yet faith, if it is genuine, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-26). Having faith in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation means that you are believing (trusting) only in Jesus to save you. It means you are not placing your faith in anyone or anything else, not even in your own works, for your salvation. This does not mean that saving faith does not result in good works. Salvation through faith “apart from works” means “apart from the merit of works” and not “apart from the presence of works.” Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of our salvation.

]]> By: Dina McNulty http://catholicrevelation.com/2009/11/once-saved-always-saved/comment-page-1/#comment-100 Dina McNulty Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:55:38 +0000 http://catholicrevelation.com/?p=195#comment-100 Yes. By Grace only. Catholics believe in 'Grace alone', which is different than 'faith alone'. For' it is but only by the Grace of God that we can live a holy life which includes a living faith and not a dead faith void of works. "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James 3:14-17 Yes. By Grace only. Catholics believe in ‘Grace alone’, which is different than ‘faith alone’. For’ it is but only by the Grace of God that we can live a holy life which includes a living faith and not a dead faith void of works.

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well, but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 3:14-17

]]> By: Rob Delisa http://catholicrevelation.com/2009/11/once-saved-always-saved/comment-page-1/#comment-99 Rob Delisa Wed, 27 Jan 2010 02:56:57 +0000 http://catholicrevelation.com/?p=195#comment-99 Yes. It is only by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ that we can be saved. But, what does it mean to <em>accept</em> God's grace? If by Sola Gracias you mean that God's Grace alone is sufficient then what is it that differentiates those who are saved from those who are not? Rob Yes. It is only by the Grace of God through Jesus Christ that we can be saved.
But, what does it mean to accept God’s grace? If by Sola Gracias you mean that God’s Grace alone is sufficient then what is it that differentiates those who are saved from those who are not?

Rob

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